Posts by La Capra

7

Trinity...an attempt of Gentiles to distance themselves from the Jews?

by mizpah in

i have often wondered whether the acceptance of the trinity doctrine in the church was an attempt of the gentile beleivers to distance themselves from the early jewish believers in the early church.

as the gentiles became the majority there does seem to be a concerted effort on the part of these members to eradicate any trace of the jewish origins of the church.

in fact, some of the early "church fathers" were very strong in their anti-jewish sentiments.

La Capra

Yes, yes, and yes (to all three in one). When Jews discuss the divinity of Christ, and the notion that Christians believe that God actually took human form, and how that morphed into the 3 in 1 doctrine, some say that this is where their fundamental proof is that Jesus of the Christians was not the messiah and savior, since it is diametrically opposed to their (our) fundamental doctrine that God is One, and only one.

I believe I have mentioned in the past that there is a level of apologist doctine in what the JWs teach as it relates to the Jews. If it weren't for this technicality of Jesus coming along, there would have been nothing incorrect about being a Jew. When I was very young, I asked my mother why we weren't Jews, since that was the people "God chose" (I was only about 7, having my first stirrings that I was Jewish in my heart and soul). And she told me that earlier in the history of the JWs, that the Jews were still considered to be part of the whole plan, and that JWs didn't try to convert active Jews. I was so young at the time, I don't remember what that particular position was, and by the time I was interested in finding out about it, asking for old foundational JW literature was a no no, so I never tracked that down. Maybe someone else on the board knows about this.

At any rate, the Christians did need a different angle, since from the beginning of time, (practically) the Jews have been a hated race and religion. Instead of being an offshoot of Judism (which it really is, and how the JWs present Christianity) coming up with a DIFFERENT notion of the almighty was essential as a separate and completely different identity. So much of the early decisions of doctrine by the Church was guided by a desire to spread and acquire power (and money and land). The Church adopted many outside customs (holidays) that would widen its appeal,and rejected other valid customs-or doctirnes- that would limit its appeal. Jewish customs limited appeal to the masses that were not Jewish. 3 = 1 was quite different, but still paid homage to Jewish mindset, yet was still quite UnJewish.

And since JWs don't want to appeal to the masses (it IS part of their continued apology to the Jews-to remain outsiders), rejecting notions that do appeal is pro forma. So many times, before even considering a notion on its merits, the ntion is rejected simply because it seems too normal to outsiders.

So as for the trinity-my research has revealed that it was instiuted by the church for several reasons, and one of them was to separate completely from Judaism. And as for JWs postion on trinity...JW doctrine clings to God of the Torah-God is One, and you shall worship no others. JW is a Jewish apologist religion, even borrowing their resurrection/paradise thing (which some Jews believe in).

But what do I know, I intuit these things, then seek verification-not the other way around.

Shoshana

43

Some People Stay Witnesses Because They Don't Want To Think For Themselves

by minimus in

jw
friends

i've come to that conclusion.

some would rather not have to think about a position, a prophecy, a requirement or a belief.

they really would rather follow the dictates of leaders of an organization.

La Capra

Fear of thinking for oneself is a quite common trait in all relgious societies. However, in mind control cults-like the WTBS-it is imperative. The members are told through one side of the mouth to "examine all things" but then are smacked back into the inactive mindset as soon as they look outside to any nonWTBS resource or not currently approved but still WTBS. Well, actually, let me clarify. They are only smacked if they think "out loud." This conditions them to believe they are thinking for themselves, when in fact they are barely thinking. This describes my mother to a T. My mother is incredibly brilliant, and very well educated. At the time of her indoctrination, she had just had her second child and was struggling with the notion of setting aside her profession to be at home with her children. The introduction of WTBS programming allowed the decision to be made elsewhere, and with that went the RESPONSIBILITY for the consequences of her decisions. It was, and still is a nice safe place for people to be, not having to be responsible for the consequences of their thoughts, decisions or actions. It is impossible to have a truly close, intimate relationship with someone who deep down does not think for themselves, nor bears responsibility for their actions. And this hurts me more than anything else about the dubs. My mother gets to know me truly-and to have my unconditional love- and I will never get to know her truly, or know whether how she treats me (which is "nice" and "warm" and "loving") is because of who she truly is, and a freely given unconditional love for me, or because that is how she believes she is supposed to treat me. I began suspecting she was following some sort of script at age 3 or 4. 30 years later, I still don't know. This one brings me to tears, because our thoughts are so directly bound with our existence (I think therefore I am). Shoshana

21

The JW Martyr Complex?

by lisaBObeesa in

jw
friends

like my mother before me, im a martyr.

i am almost unable to make a choice based on what is best for me.

and of course this has over time made me a depressed, bitter person who, much to my horror, explodes with rage from time to time.

La Capra

Oh Yeah. The entire premise that JWs are persecuted because they are they only ones who really know the "true God" forces JWs to feel "righter" therefore "better" because of their suffering. The Martyr complex is a real condition and many people (not just Jws-but JWs really have a hard time shaking it) never realize how destructive it is to one's life and loved ones. I love it when I can briefly free my mother from her cross. Sometimes, when she starts to play the martyr, I step in and choose the selfish choice for her. She gets her heart's desire, but can blame me for it (see, she is still suffering). It sort of jumbles up the complexes. My dad thinks it's hysterical when I do this to her. Now if I can just abandon my own martyr complex, and quit blaming the conflict I suffered through when I chose to do all the things I wasn't supposed to have done in my formative years (like go to college). I call it martyrdom twice removed. But I catch myself not being honest with myself and others about what I do and don't want to do or have. "He should have known I would rather go to the seafood restaurant instead of the French restaurant....", but never telling him that. Oh brother. Shoshana

12

Have you known anyone who left JW land after or because of you ???

by run dont walk in

jw
friends

unfortunately, i come from a family which is still all in jw land, i would love to be able to convince them all to get out, but i probaly have a better chance of winning the lottery, but i'll keep trying.. how many of you here had some from your family or close friend leave the jw's after you did ???

and why did they leave ???.

how did it make you feel ???.

La Capra

I got one in when I was teenager. I really want to get one out to make up for it. I am keeping my eyes and ears open for the opportunity to informally anti-witness, since they never come around in my neighborhood. I wish it to be my mom, but she doesn't care about all the inconsistensies, flip flops and other nonsense. She couldn't function if she didn't have her five meetings, service, and study to fill her mind and time so she doesn't have to know herself. Shoshana

55

Should I Convert to Become a MORMON??

by Latte in

just thought id share with you.

any tips on dealing with them would be greatly appreciated..thanks!

yesterday, i had two lovely young men at my door - they were mormons.

La Capra

As a public high school teacher, I see lots of different religious backgrounds in action "out and about in the world." For the most part Mormon teenagers are well cared for, have a sense of purpose,d uty, community service and a work ethic. I feel bad for them that they have to come to school at 6:30 A.M. for seminary everyday (the school district allows them to use a classroom). However, like with the JWs there are some Mormon kids for whom this religion will be bondage-the kids that are clearly homosexual, and those that just don't buy it and don't know a way. I had a very blunt conversation with a classmate of mine in law school who is an active, devout Mormon, whose husband bailed on her because he finally was tired of not being able to be gay. It was about shunning and excommunication. She gave me the same line that they don't shun former members. It is sort of like the JW line-and then I asked her if she knew of families that shunned their children who had left the faith, and she had to admit that she did, even though it was not the official church policy. When pressed, she admitted it was generally because they were afraid of the fallout from their fellow congregants that motivated it. She admitted that she was impressed that I immediately saw through the veil of official policy to the true practice of most Mormons. I told her that I encourage my Mormon students that are struggling with wanting to be free of their parents' religion, to try to be patient, postpone their missions and try to get as far in their education as possible before formally abandoning their religion. She thought that for the child, it was probably the best way to handle things. They are a bit luckier, Mormons don't deny their children a good education. Shoshana

31

If you ever Wondered why it is so HARD to Sue WT for being DFed- read this

by JT in

jw
friends

in re: your status in the xxxx congregation of jehovah's witnesses, xxxxxxxxx.

e. when a judicial committee handling a case of wrongdoing reaches the conclusion that the unrepentant person would be disfellowshipped, then the committee will speak with the person and let the individual know of their decision to disfellowship him or her from the congregation.

the supreme court in serbian eastern orthodox diocese specifically held that the first amendment prohibits civil court inquiry into matters of internal church discipline.

La Capra

When I was studying libel, slander, defamation in my torts class it became very clear that this would not be the way to go if one ever wanted to sue the WTBS for announcements made about disfellowshipping. They never say the reason-which may be false, but the reality-the disfellowshipment-which was true. However, if one dissasociated oneself in one congregation and moved away in hopes of being left alone, started a career as a public school teacher in a town a ways away, and 15 years later the congregation in the new town decided to start telling local members (perhaps even announcing it from the platform to all the congregations in the new town, in front of said teacher's students and their parents) that this person was "disfellowshipped" which does imply there was a fact finding method of determining wrongdoing, then there would be grounds for slander, because "disassociation" in no way "infers" the same moral wrongdoing as "disfellowshipping" and would most definitely damage the professional reputation of this person (to her students, and perhaps, if parents yanked the kids from her class, to her principal and colleagues), creating a slander per se situation. If there is slander per se, damages do not have to proven, they are assumed. (I think this may be about to happen to me, because the elders stopped by a few weeks ago saying they had received a letter that I was living in the area and was disfellowshipped. Would love for them to make that announcement, cuz I'm ready to sue their cologne wearing asses off). When I was studying unenforceability in my contracts class, I learned that minority makes a contract voidable (not void) at the minor's pleasure. The letter at the front of this thread could be very damning to the WBTS since it calls the relationship somewhat of a contractual one, the minor has a way out, and would be better off voiding it than disassociating or getting disfellowshipped. I bet a person baptized as a minor could force the WBTS to remove their name from ALL records as having been "baptized" based on this letter from their legal department admitting to the contractual relationship. No punitive damages or legal fees are awarded in contractual disputes, though. I think there are probably some cases out there for Intentional Infliction of Emotional Distress, though, particularly in some of the molestation situations in which the victim and family were punished. However, statute of limitations is pretty short for this sort of thing. By the way, the letter was a mini "brief", and since the lawyer would expect another lawyer to fact check on the precedents, it's not likely that the cases have been overruled or are misquoted. He could be disbarred, for malpractice, if they were. Shoshana

20

How do you manage your money?

by Billygoat in

jw
friends

as a child, i used to baby-sit kids in the neighborhood for money.

it wasnt much, but $2 or $3 an hour to a 14 year-old back in the early/mid 80s was pretty big stuff.

on new years eve when a lot of parents were clamoring for baby-sitters, the price would go up to $5 an hour, which was awesome.

La Capra

Do whatever is necessary to buy your home. Even if you have to eat KV (I haven't had that since I was 3, it's not available in California) for dinner three times a week-it is necessary to STOP CONTRIBUTING TO YOUR LANDLORD'S INVESTMENTS. I love people like you, you pay my mortgage on my rental properties and I get all the tax breaks, free property, and appreciation on the houses. Don't wait until you get your debt reduced. It won't matter. "No down payment" is an option (higher rates, but not prohibitive), and some people even roll all their student loans, consumer loans and auto loans into the mortgages. With two incomes, decent credit (it's not about how much you owe, it's about whether you make payments on time),and a dedicated mortgage broker, moving into your own house by the end of September could be a reality. (Real estate agents know the more reputable mortgage brokers, insurance agents know the better real estate agents). For my first property, I had a very modest down payment, and from waking one morning and deciding it was time, to moving into the property, it took 29 days. A good friend of mine was able to get a mortgage for his first house 6 months after filing bankruptcy. He also moved in in about a month (we both bought houses that were already empty-making the owners happy about really short escrow times). If we could do it on single teachers salaries (3rd year teacher for me), in the San Francisco Bay Area, then you could definitely do it on double "corporate" salaries. Once you get the other debt paid off, you can start putting that money into more property, or retirement accounts. Good luck and Good Funding, Shoshana

63

Do You Know Of Reasons Why Some Got Removed From Their Privileges?

by minimus in

jw
friends

pioneer, ms, elder publisher???

?

La Capra

My older brother was about 14 and had been playing the piano for the meetings since he was about 11. One day at the end of the Sunday meeting my mother was called to the front of the hall to meet with a couple elders. They informed her that my brother would no longer be allowed this "privilege" because his hair was too long (1977-height of the John Travolta/Saturday Night Fever craze-my brother was in the thick of it). While disappointed, she remained calm and only let a few tears out as she walked the three of us out of the hall and drove us home. My brother did not care in the least. He hated playing the songs, even though he was great at it. My mother was humiliated, embarrassed and confused as to why they didn't give my brother a bit of a warning that his hair style was too "worldly" so that he could do something about it (not that he would have-the hair battle raged in our home until he moved out at 18). A few weeks later, I was playing with some neighborhood witness kids, and an elder's son was in the bunch. If I was ten, then he had to be no more than 7 or 8. As elders' son are wont to do, he was making himself out to be a "better witness" than the rest of us. He went so far as to call into question the families of the other witness kids that were with us. Then he told everyone what his father said the elders said about each of the families. His meanest comment came when he asked me why I thought my mom was crying after her elders' meeting a few weeks earlier. I told him it was because my brother wasn't going to play piano anymore. And he said, "yeah, I know, but I do you know why?" I told him sure, because my brother's hair was too long. "Nope" he replied. "My dad told us at dinner that night that the real reason your brother can't play piano anymore is because the elders heard he smokes pot." Everyone heard this little twit say this and we all raced to my house to tell my mom. My mom was furious, on so many levels, but couldn't do a thing about it, since my dad was not a witness, and there was no one to back her up in bringing the elder with big flapping mouth to justice. JR (we'll call him JR, since that's what we called him) never even got in trouble for blabbing to the neighborhood kids like he did. Not only was he wrongly privy to confidential elder matters, but he was informed that the elders had lied to my mother about the reason. The only reason I can think of for why they lied to her was that the reason they knew about my brother's pot smoking was because some other "important" kid in the congregation was smoking with my brother, and they wanted to keep that covered up. This was my first, in the face, irrefutable example of hypocrisy I experienced in the congregation, my mother's too. Too bad she is completely brain washed. She never got a straight answer as to why they lied to her-or with held critical information about her minor child.

8

Got any interesting coincidences

by Brummie in

jw
friends

last week at work i wanted to know why my collegue had been called into the office for a talking down.

heres what transpired:.

he had a new credit card and he put the pin number into his mobile phone so he wouldnt forget it.

La Capra

A few months ago a University mailer arrived at my house addressed to the woman who owned the house before I bought it. I keep a Sharpie in my box to write her new address when things come, but when I looked closely at the address label on the postcard. It was covering an address previously printed on the card. When I looked closely at the bleed through, I could read it. It was addressed to the man who bought my parents' house-the one I grew up in. He and his family apparently still live there. Weird coincidence. I had to hand deliver this one to the gal I bought the house from, with proof I lived at the other address as a child. We thought it was pretty cool. Shoshana

29

Why do most brothers work in the cleaning business?

by JH in

jw
friends

when i joined the jw's many years ago, i couldn't get over how many were working in the cleaning business.

i know this permitted them to go to the meetings, out in the field service, and work without any conflict.. where did this trend start?

is it like this world wide?

La Capra

I was going to hire this dub pioneering couple to clean my house regularly. I had them do a trial run, but had to go back to work after let them in my house. I had had them come and paid them for four hours total person hours (at $20 per hour). My next door neighbor told me the wife left a half hour after I did and came back to get the husband an hour later (yes, I had asked her to keep an eye out for when they left). I had left a list of things to be done if they had time. They only cleaned the surfaces that showed, and not well either. When they called later that week to schedule the next job, I told them that it just didn't look that my house had been getting cleaned for four hours. The point? Oh, well, I think many do it because they generally are unsupervised and can fudge their hours (like on their service reports...)-and no one questions it because "witnesses are such honest people" (TM).